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So my first question is, can you just tell what your first person experience first personal contact with mass

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incarceration with the castration system has been in your life that you can remember?

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So I didn't know anyone got growing up like those incarcerated, but when I was in college,

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I had some friends who started writing inmates like they're perfectly involved with political prisoners.

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When I was in school in Missouri and one of the.

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One of the people that are writing was that there were Muslim, and my friends said, Hey, I tried to write another Muslim,

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can you start writing, write to them and see if you can help out some things that they did?

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My friends who aren't Muslim couldn't help him with. So I started writing to a couple of people,

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and pretty soon I was writing maybe five or six guys in Muslim Missouri and Pennsylvania Avenue in Pennsylvania as well.

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This was high school. This was in college college. Yeah.

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This would have been him. When I started, exactly. But. Twenty three, 2004, something that I saw I first started writing correspond with some people,

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a couple of guys I got got to be pretty close with the writing when they started calling me.

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We had conversations in the phone. You know, two or three times a month.

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He'd call me. And then once I graduated from college in 2006, I got my master's and I left Missouri and moved to Wisconsin.

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And I was still trying to with the guys and a guy that I was calling is to call me very regularly, so I contact somebody I thought about,

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you know, my degree is in English, my master's degree is in English with linguistics kind of emphasis.

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But I had an idea that, you know, I wanted to do more with working with incarcerated people, but I didn't know how to do that.

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You know, I just it's in my head. It's something I'd like to do, but I it down the path to doing that right now.

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So how can I make that work?

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And that's I was going to be in Wisconsin for grad school, for a Ph.D. program because most things I do know what else to do.

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And you know, it's like, Well, I got into this program. I guess I'll do it.

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I did that for one year. Didn't really feel like academia wasn't really where I wanted to be.

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And during that time, I had started.

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Volunteering at a prison about an hour from Madison Dodge Correctional Institution, one of the chaplains, Eric, contacted the mosque.

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They go to and said, Hey, we need some volunteers to come.

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Read the Friday service for the Muslims here. And I, of course, jumped on that opportunity, said I want to do this,

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and the student had the free time that I can work around on my Friday afternoons to make that work.

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And so first, there was a group of about maybe three or four of us that were going to alternate weeks and suddenly have to go every week.

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Then one of the guys moved a couple of guys,

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so I didn't want to go anymore and prison was just me and I was going every every week and I continue doing that for.

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Six and a half years, maybe seven to seven years,

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I was doing as a volunteer every Friday without fail unless I was on vacation or the prison was locked down or something like that, I was I was there.

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I I really love doing that so that when I thought I'd stop my history program isn't what I want to be doing.

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I'm teaching in a public school, elementary school and here in Madison that for about five years.

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And then again, it really wasn't.

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But I want to be doing as far as the teaching at the preschool stuff,

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but really pull towards towards going into, you know, working in the prisons more.

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But I still wasn't sure how how am I going to make this work? I don't know how to do this.

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And. So I stopped the teaching job and had a couple of part-time jobs as going to working to make ends meet.

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And for about a year looking into some options about, you know,

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going to school and figure out ways to get more involved in the prison system and the institution that I was volunteering at, the chaplain there.

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It took me under his wing and mentored me a lot while I was there because every Friday

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I'd go there and we do the Friday service and then we'd have like a short half an hour,

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45 minutes afterwards for study session men.

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And that institution has as an infirmary and a hospice program.

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So then after that he would take me down to the infirmary and I meet with the Muslim patients who are in hospice.

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It can come to the services are so sick and I would meet with them for another half an hour or so, sit with them.

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And so it's just kind of entering mission, how to how you take care.

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Here's, you know, all these things like that I learned over the years on the job training instead of, you know, classroom training.

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And then. I said looking around at the Wisconsin jobs website and seeing if, you know,

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there's a chaplaincy jobs open and the chaplain that I was working with kind of mentioned to me,

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hey, there's the chaplaincy positions open up in the prisons here.

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You should apply. So I did, you know, for the application, the civil service examine all that stuff and got contacted for some interviews.

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And I told the chaplain that I was working with that, that I had interviewed.

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I was very excited about it. And he said, Oh, that's good. You know, hopefully you'll you get the job.

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And I went to the first interview I went to actually, I walk in and he's on the interview panel.

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So that's another I think that's like, you know, it's just, you know, it's very nervous going into it.

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And I see him and I think, OK, he wants me to be the chaplain. I know him really well.

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I'm comfortable with this guy.

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So just like, totally, you know, at ease, I walked in after I saw him and I said to the place ended up getting the job at interviewing.

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Like a couple days later, they'd called me and said, Hey, you know, it took me references, you know?

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And then, you know, a week or so I was maybe the offer for the job.

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So that's that's what I'd been working since I started there in June 2013.

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And I've been working there ever since it's Fox eight correction institution, which is also about an hour from Madison,

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so I have a bit of a drive every day, but I I really enjoy the work I've been.

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I've been loving it from day one. It's always.

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So I don't mind the drive, I really enjoy the drive, you know, because it's going somewhere I want to where I want to be doing something I want to do.

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So yeah, I always tell people, you know, like if you had to drive 20 minutes to a job,

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you hate the horrible drive, but it's now our job to job you love.

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It's a big deal. And and plus, you know, we have stressful days.

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You know, you have to deal with some, you know, stressful situations at work, you know, have an hour to decompress in the car before I get home.

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So I'm not like immediately home and like, Oh my gosh, and still doing that,

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just stuff and having to dump that on my family or whatever, you know, that's not fair to them, but are just trying to decompress.

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And yeah, thank you so much for sharing for sharing this, this this project.

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I just wanted to back up and back up a little bit to go back to the the the the first experience that you were talking about was just curious.

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So with the sending the letters, I'm just curious to hear more about what that process was like.

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And specifically, what did you learn about prisons or like incarcerated people while you were in college in in this process?

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I was just wondering if you could reflect a little bit about about what this was like for you.

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Yeah. So like I said before that, I didn't really know much about prisons at all.

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I hadn't really had contact with people who were incarcerated.

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I read and listened to lectures and things like that about mass incarceration.

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So I kind of knew like the the big picture ideas, but I didn't know like that. The lived experience of people who were actually incarcerated.

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Most of the guys didn't really know a lot about like their all of the struggles they're going through,

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but the guy that I had more close contact with would explain things to me about, you know,

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even like the politics within among inmates in the prison, you know,

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and then also dealing with the administration and deal with the guards and things like that, just kind of how it can be.

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It's pretty quickly. It's a world whole different world than what we have out here.

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It's it's like our like the outside world in a lot of ways, but it's just so compressed it's, you know, a microcosm of society.

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There's a specific rules which are unwritten,

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unspoken rules about how you interact with people and what are some of the rules that you learned about that they didn't know?

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So there's a lot of there's a lot of kind of idea of like a court like.

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A growth of openness of silence.

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Like, there's something we just don't talk about, and that would be both, both among between among inmates and also among staff as well.

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I've learned to know that working in that room, the same thing with the George Floyd trial and in the time of the blue wall of silence,

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you're kind of coming down on the people that, you know.

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So yeah, that I think of an idea like, you know that some things like, you know, even if you think about, you know,

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probably movies and TV shows you seen about incarceration that they talk about and snitches and things like that.

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Yeah, it is. And things like that. Yeah. You don't.

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You know, someone's definitely wrong. You just kind of code of silence. We're not going to turn them over to the man, so to speak.

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You know, not going to, you know, he did something wrong with something so egregious that we we can't let it go.

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You know, we had to care of ourselves at the end of the day.

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There were kind of a code of behavior among inmates like, you know, it's about honor among thieves.

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That's a common common phrase. You know, it's the same idea that they they look out for each other.

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They have some strict.

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Moral codes, which may not be well, it was a moral code and moral code, but they have certain things that they rule they abide by.

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Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

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So in your experience, I mean, you don't have to answer this, but I just I just I just wanted to ask in your experience as a chaplain,

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has there ever been a moment where you saw something that you were in like that you you weren't sure if you should?

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Like what? I'm just curious to know what is this? What time of silence looks like specifically, you know, experience.

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And I understand that you might not want to share like a specific situation, but I was wondering if you could talk about like in general terms,

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obviously not getting into detail, but in general terms like what that has looked like in your experience.

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Yeah, there's um. So as far as like I see it more with the as a staff member, it more among staff among officers,

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but there are definitely cases where can people know something's,

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not something's taking place, it's not necessarily appropriate or it was against policy.

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But then when people turn a blind eye to it, unfortunately, then you know, it continues to escalate.

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And then we get to the point where then someone gets charged with criminal offenses or gets fired and things like that.

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And afterwards I was like, Well, why didn't I say something? Sooner before it got to this point.

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Yeah, but it's just this is this.

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It has culture among young staff where it's like, well, you know, that person's an adult, they know what they're doing, you know?

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I don't want to be the one who's going to get them in trouble, you know? Why do you think that?

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Sorry. It's unfortunate that of ends up with a person does get in very big trouble because someone didn't step in earlier and say,

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Hey, you're kind of, you know, you shouldn't be doing this pullback from that.

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Yeah, why do you think that like, it's that you have such a like a like an important vantage point with this.

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So so why do you think that this this hesitancy in stepping in?

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Why is it so hard to step in? Mm.

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I think the officers I would say there's a lot of there's.

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They have a special bond because they went through the academy.

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I didn't go through the mechanics, I'm not not an officer, but in part it's like the academy and I don't know what all is taught in academy anymore.

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And it's probably not explicitly said like, don't turn on each other.

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Approximately because I'm sure they're not teaching that, but it's just something they pick up along the way like that.

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And we're all in this together. You know, other to say that I'm not sure where it all comes from, but there is definitely a.

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It definitely. Really.

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I perceive that this idea that artists really want to stick together in light of the fact that it's a relatively dangerous environment,

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you know, if you want to, you know,

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there's my station, there's about thirteen hundred and fourteen hundred men who live there and we have out among all my all three shifts,

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there's 300 foreign staff. So yeah, you know, if we don't stick together, you know, all those men turned on us.

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There's not much we can do about it. So we have this idea that we got to you got to have James backs all the time.

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So just just the reality of the situation is, you know, you can't have the staff are all bickering among each other,

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not protecting each other, then it makes the real weakness for us.

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And it'll pick up on that and then easily have a very bad situation. Yeah, yeah.

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Thank you so much. So moving on to to your decision to work within prisons,

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you talk a lot about how different from the prison that you are and you're finding meaning that they're doing the work that you are doing and purpose.

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So I'm just curious to know what this purpose was and if you could talk like more more about like why you chose to do the service that you do.

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Yeah. So. As far as finding finding purpose and meaning in it, I had in college, I was involved in the Muslim Students Association at my college and.

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You know, I'll give you the Friday prayers at times, and I had a little role there.

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And I find that meaningful. It's not nice to have a leadership position and do things like that.

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But then. And also, as you know, as a teacher than I was at experience, you know, teaching people in team management, people are slamming everything.

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So even even my own faith tradition. But. When you come into a prison.

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I feel like the impact I can have is so much more, and I just the first time you you come in there,

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I mean, the first time I came there, I admit I was pretty scared. I never been in a prison before.

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But, you know, so he got there, give the sermon with a little prayer.

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And afterwards, all the guys are they're so thankful that they really appreciate the fact that, you know,

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someone's going to come in there and give up their Friday afternoon to give them this,

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this religious loving, fulfill his religious obligation, give them the attention they need.

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And it's of the things it's that's not that's not why I do it.

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Don't do it for the thanks and the praise God gave me.

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But it's one of those things where it's like, I can see, like, I see an immediate impact, you know?

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Yeah, yeah, I because I know otherwise these guys aren't going to have the opportunity to to me in Wisconsin.

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Yeah. Inmates can't lead. It can't be a prayer service.

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So it's like you're either a volunteer comes in or a chaplain comes in, at least the service or they kind of left without anything.

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So like, they really appreciate it and it becomes education and teaching them things.

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They appreciate education on a level.

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That is very different than people on the outside, do you know a lot of us because that's what it is expected of us.

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It's like, you know, it just, yeah, I'll go, I'll go to school so I can get a job. Or, you know what?

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You know, we have these other reasons, but they like to see education.

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Anything anything for them is just like opens up a whole new world of opportunities for them, a whole new way of looking at the world.

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And it's just something that they they value education and a whole different level than most of us do.

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And it really is. You appreciate the actions that we've been given in our lives to have to go to go to school, go to college and things like that.

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And just to really have that perspective and seeing like, Wow, this is yeah,

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I'm really blessed in the things that I have that I have the freedoms I have.

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Yeah, yeah. So tell me about that first day. What was that?

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What was that? What did that first day look like? Yeah, so.

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It's obvious it's been a while now I'm trying to remember back a little bit, but.

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I remember going in it is a maximum security student where I went to first.

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And so you had to go ahead and go through the security in the in the front with the, you know,

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take off your belt and your shoes and that the metal detector, all that stuff like that, which is it's like, OK, I've flown before.

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It's not that totally unfamiliar, you know, but still, it's a little nerve wracking.

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And then you go through how many locked doors had to go through and see one to there's two.

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There are two or three locks sliding doors. And then from there I had to wake up.

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The chaplain met me there and we walked up through a couple of.

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Throughout locked gate razor wire on top like that, we walked into the institution itself, go through another couple of like sliding doors,

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so it's just like, Oh my gosh, at this point I just got kind of thinking, Oh my gosh, I'm in here now.

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This is something I wanted to do. But also the reality is kind of sticking at that point that, OK, this is this is this is really happening now.

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The chaplain took me down to the chapel with an institution. He gave me a quick kind of orientation brief overview here.

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Some things do's and don'ts, you know, some basic rules.

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You know, you give me a handbook, a volunteer handbook and said, you know, read this over here in your free time, you have any questions.

187
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Let me know. And then it's kind of like, OK, now the guys are coming up here in about 10 minutes, so get ready and.

188
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So, so, so you know, the guys were coming in and I was very nervous, of course,

189
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I had my little meal, my whole speech written out, and nowadays I don't I don't really.

190
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This you can write notes, bullet points, everything, everything written out. Word for word, excel very nervous.

191
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So get up there. I give my sermon. It's very short because I'm very nervous, as if I read very quickly, you know, and didn't write out a whole lot.

192
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And the after the chaplain who said I was very short, I said, I'll take it longer next time, but that'll be the prayer.

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And I remember when we did the prayer. This is the first time I've got many prayers before before that.

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But this the first time a group of inmates in congregation.

195
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And of course, as Muslims, we pray, you know, the imams, the leader of the prayer has his back to the congregation,

196
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which is kind of a if you're not ready, if you're going to sit for hours and you're thinking,

197
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Oh my gosh, you think, Oh, this is going to have, like with when I was a sheik, you know,

198
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you know, the, you know, worst case scenario thinking of going through your head.

199
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And I remember, you know, as. Another visibly trembling, I can feel myself trembling just like that, the nervousness of being in that situation,

200
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you know, so the prayer we go through, the whole prayer and everything.

201
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And then I said afterwards, you know, the guys, you know, come out and thanking me and saying, you know,

202
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thank you for coming and thank you for doing this and all that fear and that nervousness kind of washed away.

203
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OK, you guys are really thankful to have me here. And, you know, I said the sermon probably wasn't.

204
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I don't know what I talked about at all, but it wasn't probably the best sermons that were delivered. I it was very quick.

205
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I read very quickly. And but but the guys were very appreciative of that.

206
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You know, they really did like that.

207
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Someone was going to come in and say, you know, give it their Friday afternoon to come and teach them and serve them.

208
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And yeah. It was it was definitely a.

209
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An eye opening experience for me and there a lot of emotions, I guess, you know,

210
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the nervousness then, you know, because I've been to prison before, it's the first time going in.

211
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It can be so nerve wracking. And you talked about all the the gates of the harshness of the house.

212
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So how do you transform like you're talking about, like being there?

213
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So how do you how do you find God in a place like this? Like, how do you find God in a place like a prison?

214
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At first, for me, it was very intentional.

215
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When I go in, I would say certain prayers as a as I'm entering the prison and then going in the first first time.

216
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I don't know what I did exactly, but I made a point after that.

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After the first couple of times, I make sure to say some prayers from the granddaughter of protection and prayers and things like that,

218
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and I wish I had a good intention going into that. I'm doing this, you know, for the sake of God to serve these men here, you know,

219
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to help them, you know, become better people, help them draw closer to God.

220
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And it's like that. But I would say, like, I am going through the gates, I'm saying to myself, certain prayers, Arabic and the Koran that, you know?

221
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What to get me in the right mindset, but also it's just protection because I don't know anything could happen any time.

222
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I still I still can't do that as I when I go to work now.

223
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Not quite as intentionally they used to, but I need more familiarity and comfort with the other institutions that I'm at.

224
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And this instrument is a medium security institution, so it's not.

225
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Quite as bad as it gates in locking doors to go through, so it's not quite nerve wracking, and I have been going there for eight years now,

226
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so I'm used to the gates and yeah, yeah, it's just it's just part of going to work for me now.

227
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But as far as you know, finding God in a situation like that, you know?

228
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You have to you really have to as a staff member, we have to be very intentional about it.

229
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I think about why am I here, what am I, what am I going to do today?

230
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What's my purpose in going to work? How can I help people here? Yeah, for the men that live there and women, if it's a women's institution?

231
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A lot of them met answers you've probably heard, you know, they especially talk about jailhouse conversions and things like that.

232
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And some of those might be kind of just some do might just be, you know, not very sincere in their conversion to whatever religion it is.

233
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But I spent a lot of people like they really. They really they really find God because they have nothing else.

234
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I think they really, really hit they've hit rock bottom and realize, you know.

235
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I've really messed up my life. I mean, they are facing 50 years, 100 years, you know, whatever they say, a long time in prison.

236
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I need to do something and I can't do it myself,

237
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so I need to turn to someone who has more powers and we can help me get through this difficult situation.

238
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Find myself in. Yeah. And do some really profound transformations and apply.

239
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Some of the men were they, you know, they had that.

240
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That was the moment of reflection in the moments that, you know,

241
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when they're afraid of photographs and they're in there in this and they're cell about themselves.

242
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And it's, you know, they said in 50 years and they're like, Oh my gosh, I do something guitar and knees and start praying for the first time.

243
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And it really transforms them. So can you?

244
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So obviously not like revealing other people's, identifying information or name or anything.

245
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But can you was there like any story of transformation that you've witnessed that was particularly like striking to you?

246
00:25:26,470 --> 00:25:35,170
Yeah. So this guy there's a guy that worked in the chapel at Fox, like he's there,

247
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he's our janitor for a while and then he got a job as a clerk in the chapel. He thought he wasn't a Muslim.

248
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He'd been down a long time.

249
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He is probably using his sixties, I believe he'd been locked up since he probably in his twenties or even done for a very long time.

250
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And so we got I got to know him pretty well. Walking in the chapel, I see him every day and.

251
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At first, he was very kind of gruff and.

252
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That kind of cranky old man to have a stereotype, you know, just didn't didn't really want to do much to improve himself.

253
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And he tried taking a restorative justice program. It's a really good program at Fox Lake and you try taking it once and then quitting

254
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because one day the officer was signing people into the group said something to him.

255
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He didn't like it. That I quit and I'm done with this. You know, I just try to get going to deal with this.

256
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And he quit. And you go on to the next group. Next time we ran the story, Jessica, you got into that group again and you kind of went through it.

257
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And as part of that group, we have a week where there's we have victims of crime, come in and tell their stories.

258
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And, you know, to the man in the group together with ideas for the mental and empathy, you know,

259
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to understand this, what it's what a victim that experience working with these crimes.

260
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And he was doing that group. He did that. And I remember I wasn't a part of that restorative justice group, but he has told me about it.

261
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And he said he felt his head exploded that day when the victims are telling their stories because, you know,

262
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he'd done some horrible things in his past, and he kind of realized that this is how this is this impact I had on these people.

263
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And at that same time, I believe Michael was right at the same time as the Restorative Justice Group at the same time period.

264
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I was running a group called Ethics 101, which we kind of go over ethical theories and it's kind of a college level introductory ethics level course.

265
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And I teach at the institute who's who's in that group with me too. So and.

266
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So on one hand, is this transformation like is this a personal transformation about like,

267
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you know, realizing the effects of this crime on other people?

268
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And then isn't it with me where we're studying philosophy and like, you know, things like that,

269
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and he's saying it's hard to see this blossoming in isolation, 60, 60 something years old.

270
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There's also news. I just fell in love with philosophy.

271
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And so he like he would come to me, like after every group or every week, you come and say, Hey, I'm honoring more Plato, the Plato, the reader.

272
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I wanna read more of this and read stuff and ask me questions about it and really develop a love of learning and love of,

273
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like thinking about important things. You know, it was most by that felt like, you know, yeah, I'm worthless and horrible things.

274
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Yeah, I remember one point he brought, he brought in a picture of himself when he first got incarcerated.

275
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So this is, you know, 40 years ago and he was a young, slender guy.

276
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And now he's he's, you know, it's like Santa Claus had a big white beard and a big belly like that.

277
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But is that it is a serious guy here? And I said, Yeah, that's me.

278
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Yeah. As long time ago, right? Yes. You wouldn't like that guy.

279
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You wouldn't. You wouldn't have liked that guy. And he wouldn't have liked you. Mrs.

280
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Mrs. Yeah, that's not me anymore. I'm not that same person anymore.

281
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Yeah. And it was it was just a really it's a memory.

282
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It's really burning my into my mind about this guy who transformed.

283
00:29:18,910 --> 00:29:24,520
And now he's last. I heard you went to a minimum security institution. He should be releasing pretty soon now.

284
00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:33,830
Well, I think most people who are just going to. I told the other chap, and I think, you know, I can see him being like a throw, you know,

285
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if things go like a pond, Walden finds Walden Pond and sit there and fish and read philosophy all day.

286
00:29:38,450 --> 00:29:46,370
He'd be happy, right? It just it is just such a huge transformation in his personality and his way.

287
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He thinks about things. And those stories aren't really that uncommon, either.

288
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And you ask people who transform themselves so much, you know a lot and it takes, you know, taking 40 years to get to that point.

289
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But yeah, it can happen. Yeah, people can really change.

290
00:30:01,610 --> 00:30:10,890
So how does that make you feel to think about this person's journey and how does that make you feel?

291
00:30:10,890 --> 00:30:17,140
I really feel honored to have had even a small role in that story,

292
00:30:17,140 --> 00:30:22,880
I know I know I have a transformation and but I was there to witness it and to the deceased

293
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:27,390
and to see so much change like that and gives me hope for the future for other people,

294
00:30:27,390 --> 00:30:30,060
too, because there are a lot of guys who are also facing very long sentences.

295
00:30:30,060 --> 00:30:35,430
And maybe right now they're in and out of segregation, you know, they're getting into fights, they're constantly in trouble.

296
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But. And I know if if you give them a chance, we give those opportunities that they hope they can change, they can become a better person.

297
00:30:43,650 --> 00:30:53,670
Yeah, yeah. Thank you. So you're talking, you're talking about like like your mission as to serve.

298
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And, you know, like to to like, offer hope and faith in it's such important work.

299
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:13,000
I think my question is, has there ever been a time where you felt like like you couldn't fulfill this mission?

300
00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:24,600
There are times where it gets difficult. Especially the like one or two individuals who just seemed really resistant to what we're

301
00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:29,380
trying to offer them or when I said something to look with with administration words,

302
00:31:29,380 --> 00:31:35,730
it's can try to start a program, try to get something going and they're like, they're dragging their feet on it or they keep saying, no.

303
00:31:35,730 --> 00:31:41,970
And I just. I want to do this thing I think is going to help people, but it's not being receptive to it.

304
00:31:41,970 --> 00:31:45,480
Yeah. What did you want to do exactly? Sorry.

305
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:52,140
You can go ahead and say, I think back on all the times and people died and impacting that my programs are helping with and it's like,

306
00:31:52,140 --> 00:32:00,000
OK, you're not going rich. Everybody rich, somebody that's a success doesn't have to change the whole world.

307
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:03,600
ActionScript people. Yeah, that's that's good enough. Yeah.

308
00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:08,610
And so what is something that you wanted to do? Oh, I'm sorry for interrupting.

309
00:32:08,610 --> 00:32:12,100
No, that's okay. Is A. is a little bit of lag and stuff. Yeah.

310
00:32:12,100 --> 00:32:17,280
Is that just kind of keep things in perspective, you know, realize that. Yeah, that change everything.

311
00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:23,520
Absolutely. So what was something that you said that like the administration sometimes gets in the like?

312
00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:31,920
What was something that you wanted to to do that was was challenging or that you wouldn't be able to do in the institution?

313
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:37,830
Well, so my ethics course took I had written up a nice a very long proposal for it and explained what I wanted to do.

314
00:32:37,830 --> 00:32:42,060
And I think that and my supervisor and my supervisor holding it,

315
00:32:42,060 --> 00:32:50,100
he took like 18 months for him to even consider the proposal like, you know, and while and I don't know,

316
00:32:50,100 --> 00:33:00,530
I don't know why he never really said like, Oh yeah, well, we're looking into that and, you know, months and I don't think you ever read the proposal.

317
00:33:00,530 --> 00:33:04,620
And so I get discouraged, but it's like, OK, well, what's going to happen? It's meant to happen.

318
00:33:04,620 --> 00:33:11,040
It's going to happen. And I know this group can be beneficial to people and yeah, be patient and present,

319
00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:15,190
you know, send reminders that once every couple months, they, hey, you know, the impossible.

320
00:33:15,190 --> 00:33:22,980
We can get this group going again. And eventually, you know, he he looked at it and sent it to the warden and they approved it.

321
00:33:22,980 --> 00:33:27,330
And then I had my first group and then the first group was just was amazing.

322
00:33:27,330 --> 00:33:34,470
You know, the guy said, we to have evaluations at the end and you guys had amazing things to say about the program.

323
00:33:34,470 --> 00:33:40,770
And it's one of those things. It's like, I said, be patient and benefit the people.

324
00:33:40,770 --> 00:33:45,300
Once, once we get in there and people. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

325
00:33:45,300 --> 00:33:51,900
And I've got other programs at a program that shut down because I was teaching Arabic.

326
00:33:51,900 --> 00:33:57,510
An Arabic study, which we're just now learning, we didn't get very far into it.

327
00:33:57,510 --> 00:34:04,320
We're learning we had and we did the alphabet and how to write kind of read, you know,

328
00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:10,800
pronounce words that nice to understanding them just to be able to read the Arabic language.

329
00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:16,890
And then security came in and said, Well, we don't really want to teach in this this group because, you know,

330
00:34:16,890 --> 00:34:23,250
people here speaking Arabic and we can't understand what they're saying or they'll be writing and everything and what they're saying with the writing.

331
00:34:23,250 --> 00:34:29,730
And it is frustrating, but I understood that they do have a, you know, a security concern for that.

332
00:34:29,730 --> 00:34:29,880
You know,

333
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:38,640
if there was always in writing in a language that they can't read and I know the one here who can read it now that they have a security concern about,

334
00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:47,040
you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And letters in and out and things like that in language understand it's definitely a security concern.

335
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:50,430
So it's frustrating for me and frightening for the guys when they get shut down.

336
00:34:50,430 --> 00:34:56,160
But as most things as, yeah, that doesn't make sense, it's not.

337
00:34:56,160 --> 00:35:04,290
It's a bigger picture here than just the fact that on Arabic there's security always is always the number one thing in the institution.

338
00:35:04,290 --> 00:35:07,770
So read. You mentioned earlier,

339
00:35:07,770 --> 00:35:16,470
like the how your drives is also an opportunity for you to debrief about stressful situations that work so that you don't bring that home.

340
00:35:16,470 --> 00:35:27,690
And I was just curious to know like, what are the like? What are some of the common like stressful things that you have to deal with in your work?

341
00:35:27,690 --> 00:35:30,360
So thankfully, I don't have to deal with a lot of like the fights and things like that.

342
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:37,490
I'm not a security staff, so I don't think there's a fight or medical center, a massive run in response to that.

343
00:35:37,490 --> 00:35:44,560
I hear about those things, of course. Most of what most of the most stressful things for me are.

344
00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:51,010
Kind of secondary trauma is where you'll hear a guys who come for counseling and say, you know,

345
00:35:51,010 --> 00:35:56,770
my cousin's got shot and killed in Milwaukee and you know, you know, and we break it down.

346
00:35:56,770 --> 00:36:03,790
Tell me about this. And you know, it didn't happen to me directly mean I'm hearing this thing and experiencing those things through them.

347
00:36:03,790 --> 00:36:10,190
I went to those counseling sessions can be especially when something is unexpected like that, you know,

348
00:36:10,190 --> 00:36:21,910
I got shot and killed or my child having my child or things like that, it can be very, very difficult to deal with those things.

349
00:36:21,910 --> 00:36:25,960
Yeah, yeah. Just because they're experiencing trauma. And as a chaplain, of course,

350
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:32,050
we're we're naturally kind of empathetic and we want to have experience with their

351
00:36:32,050 --> 00:36:37,390
experiencing self in their shoes with nothing to step out of that afterwards and say,

352
00:36:37,390 --> 00:36:42,400
OK, I got to return to my normal life. And that thing didn't actually happen to me.

353
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:46,070
It just happened to that person. That can be part of it.

354
00:36:46,070 --> 00:36:53,310
So it's not like said that decompression time is nice and say, OK, this is what he said, but he did what he went through.

355
00:36:53,310 --> 00:36:58,200
I help them as much as I could today, and I help them tomorrow if he needs help tomorrow.

356
00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:04,700
But I need to go home and. Got live my life, not carry his trauma with me.

357
00:37:04,700 --> 00:37:11,720
Is that going to be very difficult to, you know, if you carry anyone else's trauma with you all the time, it's not healthy to do so.

358
00:37:11,720 --> 00:37:17,570
How, how, how do you deal with that? Like, is it just an internal work that you do with yourself?

359
00:37:17,570 --> 00:37:32,630
Or do you have do you have anybody that you can talk to about the or the like or the, you know, the the the the this hard part of your of your job?

360
00:37:32,630 --> 00:37:37,460
Or how how do you how do you cope?

361
00:37:37,460 --> 00:37:45,500
So thankfully, that passed and there's another chaplain at institution where I work, and we just recently got a different,

362
00:37:45,500 --> 00:37:53,050
a different one, the priest one moved on, but then thankfully the other chaplain chaplains that I've worked with have been very I.

363
00:37:53,050 --> 00:38:00,110
We've been very supportive of each other and have a safe place to kind of talk to each other about as difficult counseling session.

364
00:38:00,110 --> 00:38:07,310
You know, here's how I shared this with what I'm experiencing and what that with each other.

365
00:38:07,310 --> 00:38:12,110
We can reflect back and say, Hey, this guy told me, it's this horrible story.

366
00:38:12,110 --> 00:38:19,340
I need someone to talk to to process it with. And so is having another chaplain there.

367
00:38:19,340 --> 00:38:21,500
And it's not as if she's not available.

368
00:38:21,500 --> 00:38:30,770
I can talk to a social worker or a psychologist at the institution, say hey and difficult, and I'm dealing with, you know, an incident where I work.

369
00:38:30,770 --> 00:38:45,620
The staff is very. Well, cross disciplinary good process when I work, yeah, so I always feel like, you know,

370
00:38:45,620 --> 00:38:50,630
as someone who is too shy to talk about what I'm going out with, that's going on.

371
00:38:50,630 --> 00:38:58,700
If you had a difficult situation like that, as I talked to my wife about some of the things they don't give out all in details, of course.

372
00:38:58,700 --> 00:39:02,900
But it's nice having someone of the institution because they understand.

373
00:39:02,900 --> 00:39:08,690
Just the reality of what it's like to be working in a prison, right, whereas on the outside, you know, if I had a,

374
00:39:08,690 --> 00:39:14,330
you know, a friend or family member I'm talking about, they think they understand they don't get the full.

375
00:39:14,330 --> 00:39:20,840
They don't like to walk through those gates every day and they don't have that same understand that we have.

376
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:25,460
So yeah, yeah, it's going to be very helpful to have other people to talk to and processes.

377
00:39:25,460 --> 00:39:28,550
That's where that that's wonderful.

378
00:39:28,550 --> 00:39:36,600
Another thing that I'm curious to talk to, you talked about your relationship with a little bit about your relationship with your administration.

379
00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:40,550
You just talked about your relationship with, like other chaplains.

380
00:39:40,550 --> 00:39:48,350
You talked about your relationship with the incarcerated individuals.

381
00:39:48,350 --> 00:39:59,320
And I'm just curious to learn about what your relationship with like officers is like.

382
00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:05,870
Yeah. It depends on the officer.

383
00:40:05,870 --> 00:40:10,820
And when I first started there, things were kind of rough at first.

384
00:40:10,820 --> 00:40:18,080
Normally I wear a turban, underscoring the kufi cap rate today, but no matter where a turban at work.

385
00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:27,760
And so I first got there, you know, there were comments mostly about the turbine, you know, derogatory comments about that and.

386
00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:35,300
Know, I think it's easier to shrug off because it's like. There is they're not my, not my peers.

387
00:40:35,300 --> 00:40:41,450
You know, there has to be working with and I can be safe, you know?

388
00:40:41,450 --> 00:40:45,860
But there are definitely. I never heard any direct comments about me being Muslim.

389
00:40:45,860 --> 00:40:54,320
Are you looking different from the officers that definitely get some weird looks or, you know, not train with the same respect?

390
00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:59,000
They treat the other chaplain? And and things have gotten better.

391
00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:02,750
I mean, I sort of have been there for eight years now, and it's a people, you know,

392
00:41:02,750 --> 00:41:09,040
so officers are going to know me and see that I, you know, I do good work, you know, right?

393
00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:14,870
And then reliable. And that, you know, things like that. It's gotten better.

394
00:41:14,870 --> 00:41:22,790
But there are still there's officers that are very comfortable having a Muslim chaplain institution.

395
00:41:22,790 --> 00:41:30,500
What are they scared of? I don't I don't really know.

396
00:41:30,500 --> 00:41:41,330
A lot of. So the institution where I work is in the middle of really the middle of nowhere, it's middle of a bunch of cornfields.

397
00:41:41,330 --> 00:41:47,570
It was the town that was next to sort of next to it has got a thousand people in it.

398
00:41:47,570 --> 00:41:54,520
So it's, you know, middle of rural Wisconsin, lots of officers that are, you know, come from that that area.

399
00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:59,720
So there's not used to I mean, there's no use to anyone who's different. You know, just and I don't fault them for that.

400
00:41:59,720 --> 00:42:03,520
It's, you know, it's just they're raised in a different environment, you know?

401
00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:07,300
Yeah, I used to seeing some walking out of the turban on and you know,

402
00:42:07,300 --> 00:42:12,480
and just and they're used to anyone that's seen as different people that they're incarcerated.

403
00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:19,820
You know, for them, a lot of the only black people that they interact with are people that are who are supervising in the prisons.

404
00:42:19,820 --> 00:42:21,700
If you go to Milwaukee or something,

405
00:42:21,700 --> 00:42:30,410
there's a lot of black people here because I think this is all black people are in prison because 99 percent people have been in prison.

406
00:42:30,410 --> 00:42:34,420
So they're just like this idea that I am.

407
00:42:34,420 --> 00:42:42,520
It's a very rural, very white area. And just, yeah, this is not comfortable, something that's different than them.

408
00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:50,260
Yeah, yeah. And you talked about the difference in treatment that you have noticed through the years between you and other chaplains.

409
00:42:50,260 --> 00:43:05,890
What do you mean by that? And don't know if I can think of any specific examples, but just like you get like these.

410
00:43:05,890 --> 00:43:08,590
This is like a it's a feeling it's not bad.

411
00:43:08,590 --> 00:43:15,090
It's much better now than it was when it first started, but then as soon as you walk in the room and there I was just like, You know, who's this?

412
00:43:15,090 --> 00:43:24,910
And this guy is different than us, you know? Or they might respond to shorter, you know, manner.

413
00:43:24,910 --> 00:43:29,020
It almost kind of rude. Yes. Just ask a question.

414
00:43:29,020 --> 00:43:37,930
Whereas the other chaplain might if she's she was there, very, very polite with her, but then comes very short with me and just.

415
00:43:37,930 --> 00:43:43,690
I never felt like any like overt, like just like my mother sitting on my face like, you know, Oh,

416
00:43:43,690 --> 00:43:52,870
we're not you because you're Muslim, but just the right amount of microaggressions and this sort of thing that we're in over time.

417
00:43:52,870 --> 00:44:03,670
But I've just had to. Really work hard and, you know, it's not the people that I show on the air and I'm going to, you know,

418
00:44:03,670 --> 00:44:10,930
I'm I'm here to do my job just like, you're here to do your job and the best I can and all that for you.

419
00:44:10,930 --> 00:44:21,140
If you look out for me and you know, we're all in this together, essentially, and people go places with great stuff.

420
00:44:21,140 --> 00:44:26,820
It's definitely helped it out. You know? Breakdowns on those barriers.

421
00:44:26,820 --> 00:44:33,770
So, yeah, yeah. Thank you so much for sharing that and for being so, so honest about this.

422
00:44:33,770 --> 00:44:46,910
I really appreciate that. One question that I had is how there's like outside of the US, your job, how does mass incarceration?

423
00:44:46,910 --> 00:44:53,930
And by that, I'm referring to all infrastructure policing the courts of jails.

424
00:44:53,930 --> 00:45:03,000
How does that impact your communities that you that are a part of?

425
00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:12,850
And. First, I'll talk about the Muslim community in Madison.

426
00:45:12,850 --> 00:45:22,420
And actually, in Wisconsin in general, we have a we have a very difficult time getting the Muslim community in Wisconsin to even.

427
00:45:22,420 --> 00:45:27,050
Think about mass incarceration, you know, except for a few.

428
00:45:27,050 --> 00:45:32,740
One massive Milwaukee that's, you know, in the inner city Milwaukee that they deal with that a lot.

429
00:45:32,740 --> 00:45:37,960
But the mass, you know, people, their immigrant communities, people coming from overseas with,

430
00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:43,030
you know, like their their PhDs or get an M.D., become a lawyer.

431
00:45:43,030 --> 00:45:48,850
So they're very they're very wealthy. They live in the suburbs, they're very out of touch with, you know, the reality of this mass incarceration.

432
00:45:48,850 --> 00:45:58,000
And and and they've always they have preconceived notions about whether a criminal is where they come from, a country where criminals really are,

433
00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:05,430
you know, locked up or people that are really, really criminals, you know, whereas in this country, people locked up for, you know.

434
00:46:05,430 --> 00:46:09,600
Relatively minor offenses compared to what you see in other countries.

435
00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:15,310
You know, since they have because is just a lot good ideas in their head about what it means to be a criminal.

436
00:46:15,310 --> 00:46:20,910
And so as far as I.

437
00:46:20,910 --> 00:46:27,030
As a chaplain and as a volunteer before that, we were always trying to get other volunteers to come in to help out other institutions,

438
00:46:27,030 --> 00:46:30,230
and it's like pulling teeth for people to be willing to do that.

439
00:46:30,230 --> 00:46:37,870
And I'd come to the mosque and it's not a Friday prayer and everyone's there and say, Hey, you know these?

440
00:46:37,870 --> 00:46:41,880
These institutions are looking for volunteers, and he doesn't see a need that you want prayer.

441
00:46:41,880 --> 00:46:47,890
They understand they can teach that so they can learn their religion and maybe get, you know,

442
00:46:47,890 --> 00:46:54,760
hundreds of people there and maybe get one person come and send a message that they will follow up with you.

443
00:46:54,760 --> 00:47:02,630
You know, it's just. So it's very difficult because but I know the reality is there are people who are touched by incarceration in our community,

444
00:47:02,630 --> 00:47:09,520
it's just it's almost like a shame to talk about it, right?

445
00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:19,490
Yeah, yeah, it's very it's very difficult. And then plus there is some issues with some issues with.

446
00:47:19,490 --> 00:47:26,180
Race played a role in that because the prison was like the congregation that I find if I'm leading the congregation.

447
00:47:26,180 --> 00:47:34,480
I can look out and it's like ninety nine, ninety five percent African-American and there might be a handful of,

448
00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:41,350
you know, Hispanic people, white person, maybe an Arab or South Asian, but it's too much.

449
00:47:41,350 --> 00:47:45,080
And when I deal with this pretty much almost exclusively African-American,

450
00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:50,240
whereas the Muslim asks, That's not the case, a handful of African-Americans.

451
00:47:50,240 --> 00:47:57,260
So there's just this disconnect in the Muslim community as a whole and the Muslim community in the prison, some guys get out.

452
00:47:57,260 --> 00:48:03,290
They kind of feel like they go home and integrate into into communities that

453
00:48:03,290 --> 00:48:06,380
were never part of in the first place Muslim convert while they're in prison.

454
00:48:06,380 --> 00:48:14,060
So, yeah, they come out and expect that the community is going to just embrace them with open arms and they come out and say,

455
00:48:14,060 --> 00:48:19,640
Hey, listen, let me see this, you know, help me out, you know, in the gut and people don't know who you are.

456
00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:24,410
You have a criminal background and this is this racism.

457
00:48:24,410 --> 00:48:28,220
And explain that to him. And I have a very difficult time with that.

458
00:48:28,220 --> 00:48:30,170
And some of the time we track,

459
00:48:30,170 --> 00:48:36,920
we've been trying to work on as far as the community to make them more accepting of and understanding that these are people that,

460
00:48:36,920 --> 00:48:40,860
yes, they did things wrong in the past, but they're trying to improve themselves.

461
00:48:40,860 --> 00:48:50,270
Yeah. You know, and unfortunately, my position as a chaplain, I can't do a lot of work with the guys want to get out of the rules as far as DC,

462
00:48:50,270 --> 00:48:59,270
as far as like fraternization between staff members, people who are right or incapacitated.

463
00:48:59,270 --> 00:49:02,450
And so there's I have a very limited role what I can do with that.

464
00:49:02,450 --> 00:49:09,280
But it's something that is very important because it just always points out, you know, 90.

465
00:49:09,280 --> 00:49:13,450
That ninety five percent of people that are incarcerated are going to return back to their communities eventually.

466
00:49:13,450 --> 00:49:22,450
We need to make sure there is ready for them and that they're ready for that entity. So it's one of those things that's very difficult.

467
00:49:22,450 --> 00:49:34,020
And as far as communities that I live in. The I live in a predominantly nonwhite neighborhood in Madison.

468
00:49:34,020 --> 00:49:39,070
Lower income and. There.

469
00:49:39,070 --> 00:49:44,730
I don't personally know anyone in my neighborhood that I might, but no, this isn't.

470
00:49:44,730 --> 00:49:51,260
They know for a fact was incarcerated or has had contact with the criminal justice system.

471
00:49:51,260 --> 00:49:57,130
Not known in my neighborhood, right? I said, I know for sure, but it's definitely a reality in this neighborhood.

472
00:49:57,130 --> 00:50:02,050
Right? Right. Right. Even in jail or in prison or.

473
00:50:02,050 --> 00:50:06,310
Right. Right, right. Thank you so much.

474
00:50:06,310 --> 00:50:10,690
I really appreciate this reflection.

475
00:50:10,690 --> 00:50:15,280
Do you have time for a couple more questions, like three questions of concluding.

476
00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:16,070
Thank you so much.

477
00:50:16,070 --> 00:50:36,400
So I think that one question is just, yeah, my concluding questions, I think, is, what do you wish I had asked you that I didn't ask.

478
00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:41,790
I don't know. I think we covered quite a bit. I.

479
00:50:41,790 --> 00:50:43,650
I can't think of anything right now.

480
00:50:43,650 --> 00:50:56,670
Is there anything about your experience or your story that you'd like to share for the archives that you haven't shared?

481
00:50:56,670 --> 00:51:03,380
Yeah, so. I found that. Unfortunately, you know,

482
00:51:03,380 --> 00:51:11,060
a lot of people have these very negative people out to have these very negative perceptions of what incarcerated people are like,

483
00:51:11,060 --> 00:51:17,090
you know that these stereotypes are based on TV or movies or whatever.

484
00:51:17,090 --> 00:51:23,630
But I've honestly found that some of the most insightful people I've ever met are people that are very special,

485
00:51:23,630 --> 00:51:28,010
people that are being arrested a long time because honestly, I mean, they have nothing to do.

486
00:51:28,010 --> 00:51:34,850
Most of them sit and think, you know, like, and they are the same, some very wise things.

487
00:51:34,850 --> 00:51:43,280
Sometimes they're in a group or or in a counseling session was like blown away by how this guy is a budding philosopher,

488
00:51:43,280 --> 00:51:48,020
like the way I was telling about how they really think about these things.

489
00:51:48,020 --> 00:51:57,250
As an example, in my ethics group that I run, we have a discussion.

490
00:51:57,250 --> 00:52:04,660
At the end, we have applied ethics, we have certain topics and ethics, and guys vote on this topic, which means they want to always pick.

491
00:52:04,660 --> 00:52:09,430
Capital punishment is what is one of them was interesting and not not as surprising.

492
00:52:09,430 --> 00:52:13,960
We don't remember a state that has capital punishment, but they always talk about it.

493
00:52:13,960 --> 00:52:18,520
And about half the group says they're in favor of capital punishment because they're not, which is said.

494
00:52:18,520 --> 00:52:23,950
I was interested in the first time because it's like Israel incarcerated and of guys are incarcerated, things that could have been a capital offense.

495
00:52:23,950 --> 00:52:30,700
You know, if this is a state that had capital punishment, but they always have they having discussions about that.

496
00:52:30,700 --> 00:52:38,380
And the last weeks they ran, there's a guy who is probably right from his 40s, early 40s now.

497
00:52:38,380 --> 00:52:45,050
He's incarcerated since he was late teens, so he is a teenager since as an adult for a capital offense.

498
00:52:45,050 --> 00:52:50,530
And he said in group, he said, You know. Yes, right?

499
00:52:50,530 --> 00:52:59,900
You know, if I are in different states, I'd probably be on death row for what I did. And he's told me he's still actually in is not positive,

500
00:52:59,900 --> 00:53:05,030
definitely thinks there's a there's a role that they should play, but we mustn't settle things,

501
00:53:05,030 --> 00:53:12,980
he said was if if they're going to execute me, they should have done it within a couple of years of me being incarcerated.

502
00:53:12,980 --> 00:53:20,120
If because of it, excuse me now that would be an injustice to not the same person I was back then,

503
00:53:20,120 --> 00:53:22,600
which is I always think about and people talk about the death penalty.

504
00:53:22,600 --> 00:53:26,660
Yeah, there are people who did horrible things and I know that people do horrible things.

505
00:53:26,660 --> 00:53:31,030
One, when guys I work with in the chapel, my clerks killed three people.

506
00:53:31,030 --> 00:53:36,710
You know, and but again, I think he seems like he's 60 years old now.

507
00:53:36,710 --> 00:53:41,150
If they're to execute him now, it'd be a huge injustice. He's no, he's not no danger to anyone anymore.

508
00:53:41,150 --> 00:53:44,340
It's completely changed my life.

509
00:53:44,340 --> 00:53:54,360
So it's really insightful things to say, and this is one thing that the all these amazingly insightful things, you know.

510
00:53:54,360 --> 00:54:01,980
And it's it's important to recognize that if we're given the opportunity to think

511
00:54:01,980 --> 00:54:10,480
and challenge them into did not grow into empathy and they can be they can really.

512
00:54:10,480 --> 00:54:16,410
Really change and transform themselves, and I've seen so many people that just recognize, you know.

513
00:54:16,410 --> 00:54:21,560
The the gravity of what they've done and want to make amends for that some way, you know?

514
00:54:21,560 --> 00:54:26,330
Right, right. And just think you remember that? Just remember that at all.

515
00:54:26,330 --> 00:54:35,950
I mean, they're all human beings. They all, yeah. They all have the same wants and needs and desires that we all have now.

516
00:54:35,950 --> 00:54:46,650
The one thing that when I first started volunteering, one of my friends gave me a piece of advice, which is to always carry with me, he said.

517
00:54:46,650 --> 00:54:54,830
He said, Remember that everyone commits sins. But only some of those sins are illegal.

518
00:54:54,830 --> 00:54:59,060
And that's right. Is I always carry with it.

519
00:54:59,060 --> 00:55:04,210
You know, I see people, you know, they're incarcerated, it's like, Yeah. I mean, it could be me.

520
00:55:04,210 --> 00:55:07,940
I know I'm not perfect. I commit sins since I can.

521
00:55:07,940 --> 00:55:11,140
I just happen to be, you know, ones that aren't against the law or whatever, you know,

522
00:55:11,140 --> 00:55:17,150
like or have been caught or you know it, things like you think a change in the moment for anyone?

523
00:55:17,150 --> 00:55:26,450
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's a very, very powerful. And think about the fact that you know what separated me from being on the side of sense that I'm on.

524
00:55:26,450 --> 00:55:31,460
It's not a lot. If something could change my life, could something happen to my life?

525
00:55:31,460 --> 00:55:35,680
And I make a bad decision and then I say on the other side of the fence.

526
00:55:35,680 --> 00:55:43,620
Yeah, you know, it's it's just a reality. I think even people on the outside really understand that, that it's not.

527
00:55:43,620 --> 00:55:49,570
It's really easy to end up on the other side of the fence, you know, it's just success was slightly different for you.

528
00:55:49,570 --> 00:55:54,230
It happened exactly you. Thank you for this reflection.

529
00:55:54,230 --> 00:56:09,230
So, Leslie, if I imagine that some decades from now, researcher studying mass incarceration in the US comes across this interview that we did today.

530
00:56:09,230 --> 00:56:14,930
Mm hmm. What if you had a final message to that person?

531
00:56:14,930 --> 00:56:25,580
What would you like that person to know about your story?

532
00:56:25,580 --> 00:56:32,320
If. Well, I was just saying, I think is part of it, the fact that, you know.

533
00:56:32,320 --> 00:56:39,220
We're all we're all human beings, we all make mistakes. Some of those mistakes innocent of in prison, some of them don't.

534
00:56:39,220 --> 00:56:48,560
And. The each person has kind of a unique trajectory of their life, you know, how I ended up being a chaplain is different than not being a chaplain.

535
00:56:48,560 --> 00:56:58,650
Oh, my and my kind of incarcerated people is different in other people's might be family members or close friends that are incarcerated.

536
00:56:58,650 --> 00:57:02,530
But, you know. Ultimately, it impacts every single one of us.

537
00:57:02,530 --> 00:57:06,430
Like I said, you know, most people, they unconsciously are going to come back to our community eventually,

538
00:57:06,430 --> 00:57:16,380
and it's up to us as members of our society to make sure that we are preparing them for that reentry.

539
00:57:16,380 --> 00:57:20,700
You know, whether it's through the education they need, whether it's through the religious services,

540
00:57:20,700 --> 00:57:24,110
they need, religious freedom, the counseling they need, whatever it is, they need rather.

541
00:57:24,110 --> 00:57:29,950
And I think it's very important we give them those resources and give the opportunities to improve themselves.

542
00:57:29,950 --> 00:57:34,090
And then given and given that those second chances are they can come back and be

543
00:57:34,090 --> 00:57:39,510
successful because otherwise it can be just that revolving door exam gets out.

544
00:57:39,510 --> 00:57:45,460
And you know that for a few months or a few weeks or whatever and they're back in prison again, we want to go to prison.

545
00:57:45,460 --> 00:57:48,290
They make that mistake in prison in the first place.

546
00:57:48,290 --> 00:57:54,370
Given all the options, they can have something and they do get out there and be successful in the argument to be a burden on the system.

547
00:57:54,370 --> 00:57:57,070
It's not going to end up back in prison again.

548
00:57:57,070 --> 00:58:04,090
I mean, as a person of faith, I believe that everyone has the opportunity for redemption and for forgiveness to improve themselves,

549
00:58:04,090 --> 00:58:13,220
so we need to help them out with it, whatever we can do to help them.

550
00:58:13,220 --> 00:58:18,920
Chaplain quote, it was such a pleasure and honor to talk to you today. Thank you so much for your time.

551
00:58:18,920 --> 00:58:23,450
I feel like I've learned so much from just hearing your talk.

552
00:58:23,450 --> 00:58:33,140
Thank you for the important work you do. Do you have any questions for me or is there anything else that you'd like to say?

553
00:58:33,140 --> 00:58:37,980
No, I don't think so. I think, like I said enough. All right.

554
00:58:37,980 --> 00:58:39,168
So I'm going to stop the.